Home
W&WW Blog Case Histories Books Shop Amazon Member Survey Advertise ?
Buyer's Guide News Help Forum Ask Tom! Jobs Videos Online Training

Water and Wastewater.com Help Forums

Click here now

Search

Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Sep 8th, 2010, 5:29am
Top 10 Members
Runyan Sobisch Keenan Seghers Santa Cruz Gillen Kendall Orlebeke Ayrus Kersey
  HomeHelpSearchLoginRegister  
Industrial Phosphating Rinse Electrocoagulation (Read 2770 times)
dbrock
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

Water and
Wastewater.com is
the best!

Posts: 21


Company or Organization: Houghton Intl
Industrial Phosphating Rinse Electrocoagulation
Feb 16th, 2005, 4:04pm
 
Does anyone know if Electrocoagulation has been applied successfully to automotive phosphating rinse water as either an inline  filtration loop treatment or point source treatment prior to either discharge to industrial pretreament or inplant reuse for process makeup.  Primary concern is removal zinc/nickle for possible reclaim/reuse.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
ACH
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

We can help with all
your waste water
needs

Posts: 20

Gender: male

Company or Organization: Environmental Compliance Equip
Re: Industrial Phosphating Rinse Electrocoagulatio
Reply #1 - Feb 16th, 2005, 4:49pm
 
I am unsure of Electrocoagulation use in this stream but I do know of a process that will concentrate the solution generating a distilled quality product.  The concentrate can be sent through a follow up technology to scavange out the Nickle/Zinc creating a closed loop process.  I do know that electrocoagulation will be limited on the solids (phosphate) for blinding of the electrodes will cause the system to lose its ability to transfer the voltage plate to plate.  
I can provide information on the technology.  Email me.
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
grrun
God Member
*****
Offline

WaterandWastewa
ter.Com is the best!

Posts: 2003


Company or Organization: Freelance Environmental Engine
Re: Industrial Phosphating Rinse Electrocoagulatio
Reply #2 - Feb 16th, 2005, 5:32pm
 
Have you considered using demineralized water for rinsing and for making up the phosphate tank? I think that an RO system could then be used to recycle the rinse water and the concentrated reject could be used for make up to the phosphate tank. Accumulations of soluble iron might interfere with this scheme so you may want to investigate this possibility on the bench first. Even if you had to treat the RO reject, it may accomplish your objective.

Sincerely, grrun     Undecided
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
dbrock
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

Water and
Wastewater.com is
the best!

Posts: 21


Company or Organization: Houghton Intl
Re: Industrial Phosphating Rinse Electrocoagulatio
Reply #3 - Feb 16th, 2005, 6:09pm
 
grrun

Thank you for your comments - we have considered this , however, we are using RO water cascaded and mixed with process water  from final rinse through polishing rinses to the primary rinse.  We are considering diverting all rinse wastewater back to the RO as an option.  Reject from the RO (which is used to generate additional RO for other processes as well) however still goes to the pretreatment plant and is a significantly higher flow than the phosphate rinse wastewater making the collection and treatment more capital intensive.  We settled on microfiltration as a point source concept instead of RO due to the pH sensitivity of the RO process which would have to run at a pH 6-8 and the potential to need for Iron or Alum chemistry to treat prior to filtration.  Still trying to determine if the microfiltration will work at the pH 9 - 9.5 we expect to need to precipitate the metals (our lime softened process water usually runs about pH 9.5 to 10).   Additionally  although we are considering it we are hesitant to reintroduce the treated water to the phosphating tank as there are significant opportunities for contamination to the phosphating solution doing so and still may be more cost effective to dispose the metal solids rather than recalim.  Still an idea to consider after we have all the kinks worked out. Thanks again.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
JMJ5152
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

Water and
Wastewater.com is
the best!

Posts: 1


Company or Organization: Catalyx, Inc.
Re: Industrial Phosphating Rinse Electrocoagulatio
Reply #4 - Feb 16th, 2005, 11:12pm
 
dbrock: EC usually uses a sacrificial electrode to give off Fe or Al ions to help adsorb/precipitate other metals on the floc of the hydroxide formed. If your intent is to filter rather than reduce dissolved metals, then EC would not be a good method.
If you want to reduce the phosphates in your water, then you will get the levels down by adding iron from the sacrificial electrode. However, that can also be done by simply adding iron salts. The solids from phophating rinses are not very easy to filter. Microfilter may get plugged often. DE coated filter press may be better.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
dbrock
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

Water and
Wastewater.com is
the best!

Posts: 21


Company or Organization: Houghton Intl
Re: Industrial Phosphating Rinse Electrocoagulatio
Reply #5 - Feb 17th, 2005, 12:23pm
 
JMJ:  Thanks for the thoughts - on the microfiltration were you refering to the cloth type pressure filter or membrane/concentrator  type of microfiltration.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Rudydog
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

WaterandWastewater.C
om is the best!

Posts: 16


Company or Organization: USA
Re: Industrial Phosphating Rinse Electrocoagulatio
Reply #6 - Feb 24th, 2005, 2:23pm
 
I sell EC equipment/ systems and I personally have used this technology to remove organo-phosphate as the Al2(PO4)3 percipatant. EC is a chemical free wastewater treatment method that uses DC voltage (about 30 to 50 amps) and sacrificial Al plates to subsequently treat wastewater.
We have a large system at a wood treating facility along the Columbia River in WA state that is being specifically used to reduce copper, chromium and arsenic prior to direct discharge into the River. In term's of phosphate rinsing, there can typcially be a problem if the waste stream contains a high level of surfactant (cleaner). These chemicals are very good dispersing agents and thus can limit the effectiveness of EC or any other chemical treatment employed. A simple pH reduction usually works to render these surfactants usless and then the water can be treated.
Do you use any chemicals for coagulation/flocculation today?

Typically, the amount of alum used will reduce the pH enough to where either EC is more effective. The problem is, the metals you noted to be removed, are significantly less soluble at pH greater than 7.5. EC works well in this region but works against the POSSIBLE need to break the surfactants.
Let's discuss. Give me a call if you'd like.
Peter J. Evans
(503) 267-3604
Portland, OR
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
dbrock
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

Water and
Wastewater.com is
the best!

Posts: 21


Company or Organization: Houghton Intl
Re: Industrial Phosphating Rinse Electrocoagulatio
Reply #7 - Feb 24th, 2005, 4:48pm
 
Rudydog
All rinses we are considering for treatment are post phosphating. We do not use any surfactants/cleaners post phosphate so I do not see that as an issue.  I have heard that there is a process similar to electrocoagulation that uses non-sacrificial anodes (electrocatalytic precipitation). Any experience with that?  Also could you clarify your thoughts on the zinc/nickle being less soluable above pH 7.5 - Standard practices I have dealt with have always been to precipitate them as an hydroxide with lime or caustic at pH 9-9.5.

Thanks - Dbrock
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
orenda
Senior Member
****
Offline

WaterandWastewa
ter.Com is the best!

Posts: 310
AZ
Gender: male

Company or Organization: Orenda Technologies, Inc.
Re: Industrial Phosphating Rinse Electrocoagulatio
Reply #8 - Feb 24th, 2005, 7:18pm
 
Dbrock:

Electrolytic-Catalytic Precipitation is the U.S. patented wastewater treatment process, owned by Aquatic Technologies, and using non-sacrificial electrodes. It is capable of treatment of virtually any industrial water, with or without organics and metal compounds, to discharge limits.

If you would like to explore the application of the ECP system for your particular water, please contact ECP International, LLC at 541-557-4108, or 800-322-1648, or water@infoecp.com. A simple and rapid pilot run can identify system performance, system scale-up factors and system costs for your needs.

Regards,

Orenda
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
sobisch
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1372

Gender: male

Company or Organization: L.U.M. GmbH
Re: Industrial Phosphating Rinse Electrocoagulatio
Reply #9 - Feb 25th, 2005, 5:24am
 
Dear Rudydog,

I just wanted to discuss the 'surfactant issue'.
The problem obviously refers to anionic surfactants. Nonionic surfactants are greatly unaffected by pH. Further only in case of soaps the dispersing effectivity drops with the pH, because other common anionic surfactants show a high dissociation degree also at low pH.
It seems to me that the real problem is the interaction of the anionic surfactants with metal ions or their insoluble  complexes.

Addition of a cationic polyelectrolyte should be very effective in avoiding interference from anionic surfactants and to some degree from nonionic too.

Kind regards
T. Sobisch
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
abescousin
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

Water and
Wastewater.com is
the best!

Posts: 4


Company or Organization: Cal-Neva Water Quality Researc
Re: Industrial Phosphating Rinse Electrocoagulatio
Reply #10 - Aug 28th, 2005, 1:10am
 
Good Day Mr. Brock, I was researching for something else and saw your question.  My name is Dr. Abe Beagles with Cal-Neva Water Quality Research Institute in Newcastle, Ca. for questions you can  reach me at 916-434-7880, I am one of the few published authors on the subject of EC here in the US and have tested all of the worlds EC systems at different times.  If you want to reclaim the nickel and other metals that have a value for resale then you can use a system that I am aware of from Finland that is so far ahead of others it is unbelievable.  One of my associates who teaches in Helsinki is an inventor and one of the leading experts in recovering metals from different solutions.  He has a number of patents and will work with people like yourself who needs help in the gray areas of water treatment.  If you still don't have the bugs worked out of your system give me a call.  You can also go to my website at http://eco-web.com and then go to editorials and then to authors and I am the first one-Gerry Beagles.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
abescousin
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

Water and
Wastewater.com is
the best!

Posts: 4


Company or Organization: Cal-Neva Water Quality Researc
Re: Industrial Phosphating Rinse Electrocoagulation
Reply #11 - Jan 24th, 2009, 9:48pm
 
Back in 05 I responded to this original question and since then we have done a lot of research and we have a definate answer for you now.  Cal-Neva has developed a new electrode that allows us to flow water through our new Anode and not around it.  This has improved the the removal of hard to remove metals such as your lead and zinc and Boron and Selinium from such sources as your rinse water.  This new Anode allows us to increase the residence time of the water containing the contaminants and since the water flows through the Anode it stays in contact with the Electron Cloud that is formed in the water by the addition of the DC power source.  In Texas we have proved to Chesapeake Oil that we can remove up to 98% of these heavy metals from their Produced Water and Flow Back Water.  In helping us to accomplish this we have also developed a new additive that is put in the water flow prior to the EC tubes and what happens is that we are able to start phase separation of the contaminants by specific gravity which assists the EC unit in delivering the correct amount of Electrons to the contaminants so that they will become complete atomic particles of the metals instead of being a colloid of the metal and being unstable.  By the addition of our metals in the Anodes we combine the small flock particle of Aluminum which is what starts the coagulation process in this water and then we charge the Iron Anode and this allows the flock of the contaminant to adhear to this larger particle and when it emerges the end of the EC system into a tank the flock is floated to the surface on the Hydrogen bubbles that are created within the system and the flock can be paddled off of the top of the water in a decant mode.  This same technology is proving very successful in the removal of Boron and Selinium from sewage plant discharge waters and we are getting up to 99.7% removal of these contaminants with our system.  I realize that this is almost three years after your question but these kind of problems don't go away and maybe this answer will assist someone else in the removal of these contaminants.  I do not want to divulge too much about our studies without having non-disclosure in place but if anyone needs more info on this subject call me or email and we will talk and can give you more with docs in place.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged