Home
W&WW Blog Case Histories Books Shop Amazon Member Survey Advertise ?
Buyer's Guide News Help Forum Ask Tom! Jobs Videos Online Training

Water and Wastewater.com Help Forums

Click here now

Search

Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Jun 18th, 2013, 3:22pm
Top 10 Members
Runyan Sobisch Keenan Seghers Santa Cruz Gillen Kendall Orlebeke Ayrus Kersey
  HomeHelpSearchLoginRegister  
Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach (Read 3358 times)
GAOP
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 3


Company or Organization: Ftizgerald Utilities
Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Dec 01st, 2011, 9:55am
 
Hi

We are a small lab and have been collecting and analyzing Nitrate  and Nitrite with a DR2800 spectrophotometer using the TNT vials.

Our permit list Nitrite-Nitrate as a parameter, do we just combine the results we get from our DR2800 or do we need to use something else to get the results for our permit?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
DavidH
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 2


Company or Organization: Ojai Valley Sanitary District
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #1 - Dec 1st, 2011, 12:43pm
 
I could be wrong, but I don't think Hach has an EPA approved method for testing Nitrate on the spectrophotometer. If so your nitrate results should not be used for permit reporting. Nitrite by TNT is compliant though. Check your manual, Hach catalog or call Hach.
David
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
David S.
Senior Member
****
Offline

I have nothing
clever to say here.

Posts: 373

Gender: male

Company or Organization: Environmental Express
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #2 - Dec 1st, 2011, 1:52pm
 
I was not aware that there was a colorimetric method that would analyze nitrate alone.  I thought the only methods available were to reduce the nitrate to nitrite and then react with sulfanilamide/NED.  You should definitely look for an approved Nitrate+Nitrite method.
Back to top
 
 

Working hard to bring reason to the field of regulation.
WWW   IP Logged
FR
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 15

Gender: male

Company or Organization: City of Hayward
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #3 - Dec 2nd, 2011, 6:55pm
 
There is a colorimetric method for both nitrate and nitrite. The nitrite is SM 4500 NO2, SM 4500 NO3, the nitrite method is very simple while nitrate one needs some preparation in water bath.

You may do nitrate by electrode if you get an electrode and ISE meter.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Jeff Naumann
God Member
*****
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 1133
Torrance, California
Gender: male

Company or Organization: Jeff Naumann & Associates
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #4 - Dec 2nd, 2011, 8:14pm
 
Here's an old method that is still approved (I think):

http://water.epa.gov/scitech/methods/cwa/bioindicators/upload/2007_07_10_methods_method_352_1.pdf

I see that Dr. Jenkins worked on this method for use in saline waters, "way back when."
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Jim Royer
Junior Member
**
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 95


Company or Organization: Urbana Champaign SD
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #5 - Dec 5th, 2011, 11:42am
 
The last time I checked 40 CFR 136 I only saw Cadmium reduction, ISE probe, or IC methods approved for reporting. Maybe I overlooked a method so let me know.

I would like to see some other methods such as the UV method approved so that nitrate would be easier to analyze.

Nitrate is a significant pollutant in streams so more dischargers need to monitor so that the impact on the environment can be assesed.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Victor
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline

Escherichia coli
Happens!

Posts: 1269


Company or Organization: www.santacruzproductions.com
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #6 - Dec 5th, 2011, 2:31pm
 
Best be careful when using HACH for meeting permit required lab testing.  HACH categorizes its products into 4 distinct groupings: USEPA Approved Methods, USEPA Accepted Methods, HACH Equivalent Methods, and HACH Approved Methods.  USEPA Approved Methods are the ones listed on 40CFR.  The only HACH method coming close to measuring any N species is HACH method 8507 for Nitrite nitrogen which is USEPA approved.  Google "HACH regulatory compliant methods" and you can download a PDF from HACH.  The methods under 40CFR approved for nitrate-nitrite (as N) are cadmiun reduction (manual/automated), automated hydrazine, reduction/colorimetric, ion chromatography.
Back to top
 
 

www.santacruzproductions.com
http://santacruzproductions.wordpress.com
http://www.linkedin.com/groupInvitation?groupID=2328156&sharedKey=6D694C2A168C
Disclaimer! Please Read:
There is no warranty or assumption of any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, apparatus, product, or
WWW   IP Logged
NorCal_Wastewater1
God Member
*****
Offline

"Wastewater
rules! Give sludge a
chance!!!"

Posts: 1780
CA.
Gender: male

Company or Organization: Wastewater
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #7 - Dec 6th, 2011, 9:54am
 
Hey Victor;

Readily admitting up front that HACH is my competitor and looking at the regulatory docs for (N) measurements per method 352.1 EPA NPDES permit specs allows for Spectrophotometers to measure (N).

The WTW 6100/6600 Spectrophotometers will perform the measurement to EPA specs.  

So as you correctly point out one must be careful when going by the HACH claims of compliance.  Yes, they have EPA compliant meters, but one must read fully at WHAT LEVEL of compliance does their meter work. Lips Sealed

Dallas
Back to top
 
 

Have a great day,

Dallas
  IP Logged
Dedalus
Full Member
***
Offline

Science is a
business of
empiricism.

Posts: 238
NY
Gender: male

Company or Organization: Dedalus Environmental
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #8 - Dec 8th, 2011, 2:20pm
 
Hach markets a version of Cd reduction where powdered Cd is in the reagent packet, along with some kind of pH buffer. You're supposed to shake the sample prep for 60 seconds, then add the color reagent.

I've used this kit. It stinks. My calibration standards were all over the place.

You might construct a Cd reduction column (not hard to do) and then use Hach's NO2 analysis chemistry. You would likely get good results but I'm not sure how a regulator would view it.

I have also had luck with the Chromatropic acid method (see Standard Methods) for very limited sample volume.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
David S.
Senior Member
****
Offline

I have nothing
clever to say here.

Posts: 373

Gender: male

Company or Organization: Environmental Express
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #9 - Dec 8th, 2011, 2:31pm
 
Making a manual Cd reduction column is approved for regulatory analysis.  You just have to make sure you prep your Cd properly.  The biggest problem with doing it that way is ensuring consistent flow/contact times with your samples.
Back to top
 
 

Working hard to bring reason to the field of regulation.
WWW   IP Logged
Dedalus
Full Member
***
Offline

Science is a
business of
empiricism.

Posts: 238
NY
Gender: male

Company or Organization: Dedalus Environmental
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #10 - Dec 8th, 2011, 4:53pm
 
David S. wrote on Dec 8th, 2011, 2:31pm:
Making a manual Cd reduction column is approved for regulatory analysis.  You just have to make sure you prep your Cd properly.  The biggest problem with doing it that way is ensuring consistent flow/contact times with your samples.


Yes, I know that it is; but I don't know if playing "mix and match" with doing the reduction manually, then using Hach pillows for the finish would be acceptable to them. I'm quite certain you could get the right answers that way.

A very good procedure for prep'ing the Cd granules is in the USGS methods manual.

Key hint; after copperizing them, be very, very gentle washing them! The Cu coating is not very adherent, and it is easy to strip it off if you are too aggresive in rinsing. Don't sweat it if there's a bit of Cu powder still in the mix; it'll wind up in the glass wool at the bottom of the column.

If in the lab "junk drawer" you have a busted microburet with 10 cm or so of barrel left attached, that makes a great column.

The flow rate through the column is not terribly critical, as long as it is not too fast. I suppose one could use a peristaltic pump to pull the sample preps through. I always got real decent results just using gravity.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
gregga
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

Water and
Wastewater.com is
the best!

Posts: 24


Company or Organization: WSL
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #11 - Dec 10th, 2011, 1:12am
 
I think the Cd reduction method is probably the easiest way to go because determining nitrite is quick and easy.  I had been using a non-EPA approved Merck NO3 method where NO3 reacts with a "benzoic acid deriviative" in conc sulphuric to form a red nitro compound.  I used this for non regulatory work but I do not like working with conc sulphuric nor dealing with the hot temperatures involved when the sample is added.  It was also subject to salt interference.

I am planning to get TN and TP approved using Merck kits because they work very well but the NO3 has been the stumbling block for us.  Cd reduction looks like the goods, and you can re-activate too.

Greg.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
David S.
Senior Member
****
Offline

I have nothing
clever to say here.

Posts: 373

Gender: male

Company or Organization: Environmental Express
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #12 - Dec 12th, 2011, 8:37am
 
There is another reduction method that just got or is in the process of getting approved for use.  It doesn't use cadmium to reduce but rather some sort of enzyme.  I can't recall the name right now, but someone with a discrete analyzer makes it.  You might want to look at it so you won't have to deal with the hazardous waste aspect of cadmium.
Back to top
 
 

Working hard to bring reason to the field of regulation.
WWW   IP Logged
Dedalus
Full Member
***
Offline

Science is a
business of
empiricism.

Posts: 238
NY
Gender: male

Company or Organization: Dedalus Environmental
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #13 - Dec 14th, 2011, 5:50pm
 
There's also hydrazine sulfate reduction. Though the N2H4 is pretty toxic it's also quite easy to oxidize with chlorine, or whatever; no heavy metals issue.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Chuck.Pierce
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 9
Sydney
Gender: male

Company or Organization: Sydney Water
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #14 - Jan 2nd, 2012, 8:26pm
 
In Federal Register /Vol. 75, No. 184 /Thursday, September 23, 2010 / Proposed Rules the EPA proposed approving the Systea Easy (1-Reagent vanadium chloride) Nitrate Method.  This is a single or double reagent addition to reduce NO3 with vanadium chloride. It is easy to use and not affected by sample salinity like the hydrazine reduction method was. Since the submission period ended 22 Nov 2010 it may well be approved by now, but I can not find confirmatory evidence.
Kind regards.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Victor
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline

Escherichia coli
Happens!

Posts: 1269


Company or Organization: www.santacruzproductions.com
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #15 - May 12th, 2012, 12:57am
 
The Systea Easy method is included in the newly signed 17 April 2012 Methods Update Rule--it has not been published to the Federal Register as of yet:

http://water.epa.gov/scitech/methods/cwa/update_index.cfm
Back to top
 
 

www.santacruzproductions.com
http://santacruzproductions.wordpress.com
http://www.linkedin.com/groupInvitation?groupID=2328156&sharedKey=6D694C2A168C
Disclaimer! Please Read:
There is no warranty or assumption of any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, apparatus, product, or
WWW   IP Logged
jeffryy
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 20


Company or Organization: rmit
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #16 - May 30th, 2012, 6:08pm
 
Hi,

may I know if anyone here uses the HACH nitrate and nitrite powder pillows testing method?

(I am quite confused as the posts above mention cadmium reduction but on NO2-?)

This is what I am using:

HACH nitrate method 8039 cadmium reduction method HR (0.3 - 30 mg/L NO3 --N)
and
HACH nitrite method 8159 ferrous sulfate method HR (2-250 mg/L NO2-)

Because I am  currently facing some issues with discrepancies when tested on standard solutions. No idea what goes wrong  Undecided

Any thoughts?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
David S.
Senior Member
****
Offline

I have nothing
clever to say here.

Posts: 373

Gender: male

Company or Organization: Environmental Express
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #17 - May 31st, 2012, 7:43am
 
What kinds of discrepancies do you see? Give us a little more information before we can formulate any thoughts.
Back to top
 
 

Working hard to bring reason to the field of regulation.
WWW   IP Logged
jeffryy
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 20


Company or Organization: rmit
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #18 - Jun 3rd, 2012, 7:04pm
 
sorry, for not specifying,

when testing for NO3-N,
I detected 3.5 -4 mg/L using a 10mg/L standard solution. I used different spectros to test this already and still does not come close to the standard value. The range of the method is (0.3 to 30mg/L). I have no idea why it differs so much, but HACH staff is asking me to make standard adjustment on the spectro.

when testing NO2-;
I measured 5 and 8 mg/L using 10mg/L silver nitrite solution (unstable duplicate).  but I think it is because the range of this NO2 HACH test is too great (2 - 250 mg/L) which makes the deviation in the reading reasonable. However, I only need to measure nitrite levels around 10 to 20mg/L and currently considering other method with higher accuracy. The next lower range by HACH is 0.6 - 6 mg/L.

Thanks
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
David S.
Senior Member
****
Offline

I have nothing
clever to say here.

Posts: 373

Gender: male

Company or Organization: Environmental Express
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #19 - Jun 6th, 2012, 9:55am
 
If you could provide some Hach test method numbers or the part numbers for the reagent kits you are using that would help.  I couldn't find anything that referenced those ranges that you gave. I'll try and give some helpful general advice.

First the nitrite testing. I would definitely go with the lower range testing kit. You can easily dilute your samples by 2x or 5x to get them within the test range. The standard you are using is very close to the detection limit and as you noted the results you get are pretty good for that level. Just out of curiosity, why are you using silver nitrite as the standard solution? If I recall correctly, silver will actually precipitate out with these reagents and the test conditions. Try using a potassium or sodium nitrite salt. Also, make sure you have the standard concentration calculated as nitrite not as silver nitrite.

For the nitrate test, what is the standard made of? Again, try to go with the sodium or potassium salt. Be sure you are following the timing exactly right on this. The cadmium reduction is time sensitive. The color development stage also must be allowed to proceed to completion. Measuring too early will lead to low recovery.
Back to top
 
 

Working hard to bring reason to the field of regulation.
WWW   IP Logged
Dedalus
Full Member
***
Offline

Science is a
business of
empiricism.

Posts: 238
NY
Gender: male

Company or Organization: Dedalus Environmental
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #20 - Jun 6th, 2012, 3:31pm
 
I followed the instructions to the letter and still got crappy results.

I generally love Hach products, but their nitrate kit is an exception. Save yourself a lot of grief and make a Cd reduction column.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
jeffryy
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 20


Company or Organization: rmit
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #21 - Jun 7th, 2012, 12:03am
 
This is what I am using:

HACH nitrate method 8039 cadmium reduction method HR (0.3 - 30 mg/L NO3 --N) using NitraVer® 5 Nitrate Reagent Powder Pillow
and
HACH nitrite method 8153 ferrous sulfate method HR (2-250 mg/L NO2-)
using NitriVer® 2 Nitrite Reagent Powder Pillows

Sorry for the confusion, initially, I used Sodium nitrite at 10 mg/L and detected around 5 and 8 mg/L using HACH method. ( 10mg/L is used because that is approx what is detected in my experiments)

Then I saw that standard method uses 200mg/L sodium nitrite as accuracy check but I measured 110-115 mg/L which is nowhere close.

I will probably use the dilution method and use lower concentration testing method by HACH.

For nitrate, I am using the Nitrogen-Nitrate Standard Solution, 10 mg/L as NO₃-N ;Product #:30749

@david.S.: Is color development stage the reaction time? I have followed the timing as written in the instruction..

@Dedalus: Is the Cd column the one mentioned here? http://www.umass.edu/tei/mwwp/acrobat/sm4500NO3e.PDF
seems like a lot of work involved; so I can use the HACH powders, but with that column instead of the bottles? Currently, I am considering using probe by HACH to detect nitrate in an attempt to save myself from even more trouble.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Dedalus
Full Member
***
Offline

Science is a
business of
empiricism.

Posts: 238
NY
Gender: male

Company or Organization: Dedalus Environmental
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #22 - Jun 7th, 2012, 1:56pm
 
Sure, it's a bit labor intensive, but treat the column kindly and it will last for a few months.

Yes, that's the procedure, but the USGS manual has a better decription of it.

You might be able to purchase one from Lachat or OI Analytical and simply operate it manually.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
nasrin
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 20

Gender: female

Company or Organization: Arya industry
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #23 - Jun 11th, 2012, 11:16pm
 
Hi jeffryy
I used Cd reduction method in determination of NO3
this method is not really Repeatable method it is very dependent on how you shake it!!! you have to shake your cell very vigorously and very reproducible.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Luci
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

Give bugs a chance!

Posts: 6


Company or Organization: UL
Re: Nitrate-Nitrite testing with Hach
Reply #24 - Jul 2nd, 2012, 2:19pm
 
Approved methods for nitrate, nitrite and combined nitrate/nitrite are listed at 40 CFR 136.3, Table 1B. Just google it. This is a 'green' method compared to Cd reduction.

The issue is, should I buy a new equipment from that company?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged