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remember0505

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MBR pilot scale problem!
Apr 10^th, 2012, 12:25am

Hi everybody!

I’am runing a dental wastewater treatment system with membrane technology (MBR), the flow rate is 0.5 m3/day. So I using 01 module of membrane with the area about 0.6 m2. The capital of suction pump is 33 litre/h, total head = 33m. But the pump can’t absord!

Please tell me how to calculate and choose a suitable suction pump!

Thanks! Huh

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Jeff Naumann God Member Offline I love Water and Wastewater.com Posts: 1133 Torrance, California Gender: Company or Organization: Jeff Naumann & Associates	Re: MBR pilot scale problem! Reply #1 - Apr 10^th, 2012, 8:01am What type of pump are you now using?
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remember0505 YaBB Newbies Offline I love Water and Wastewater.com Posts: 24 Ho Chi Minh City Gender: Company or Organization: VITTEP	Re: MBR pilot scale problem! Reply #2 - Apr 10^th, 2012, 8:53am I'am using panasonic pump with model GPX 125W! Q = 33litrer per hour.
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Jeff Naumann

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Re: MBR pilot scale problem!
Reply #3 - Apr 10^th, 2012, 10:15am

From whatever little information available on the Panasonic website, I don't think the pump you are using is capable of providing the high pressure the membrane system needs.

You will need to screen out any solids from going into a "high-pressure" pump. Hopefully, someone with actual membrane experience can offer a better pump for your project.

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argfin

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Re: MBR pilot scale problem!
Reply #4 - Apr 20^th, 2012, 8:53am

Hiya,

Er, did you say 'suction pump' and 33m of head?? Shocked

You won't ever find a suction pump to do that! You are looking at most 10m of head for suction simply from the physics.

To do that head you need a submersible or for the pump to be near the outlet and pump upwards. Most pump manufacturers should produce pump-rate / head tables...

Regards,
argfin

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Watthour Full Member Offline Effective Efficiency Posts: 234 Company or Organization: WWDS, Ltd.	Re: MBR pilot scale problem! Reply #5 - Apr 21^st, 2012, 11:04am That's odd. Stokes used to offer a suction pump that would produce 0.3 Torr, or roughly the equivalent of 33.9' of water (not 33m). I doubt that it would be suitable for a membrane application, however. I suspect the OP is confusing terms, or I am.
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argfin

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Re: MBR pilot scale problem!
Reply #6 - Apr 23^rd, 2012, 1:58am

Hi All,

33' is about 10m, so it's quite possible!

Remember, are you sure it's 33metres, and not 33 feet?

If it's feet then it should work, but I would suggest that it is at its limit...
I hope I'm not being patronising, but if it's an impeller style pump it will need to be primed (filled with water - if you run them dry the seal gets too hot and cracks and eventually breaks up) in some way before it will work. All the connections will need to be super air tight, the mechanical seal will need to be in top condition as will the bell-housing.
If it's a diaphragm style then I would say check all is air tight... I once had a crack on the suction side that I could hardly even see but it was enough to stop a diaphragm pump from working.

Regards,
argfin

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argfin

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Re: MBR pilot scale problem!
Reply #7 - Apr 23^rd, 2012, 2:00am

argfin wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012, 1:58am:

Hi All,

33' is about 10m, so it's quite possible!

Remember, are you sure it's 33metres, and not 33 feet?

If it's feet then it should work, but I would suggest that it is at its limit...
I hope I'm not being patronising, but if it's an impeller style pump it will need to be primed in some way before it will work (primed = filled with water - if you run them dry the seal gets too hot and cracks and eventually breaks up). All the connections will need to be super air tight, the mechanical seal will need to be in top condition as will the bell-housing.
If it's a diaphragm style then I would say check all is air tight... I once had a crack on the suction side that I could hardly even see but it was enough to stop a diaphragm pump from working.

Regards,
argfin

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argfin Full Member Offline I love Water and Wastewater.com Posts: 145 Company or Organization: None	Re: MBR pilot scale problem! Reply #8 - Apr 23^rd, 2012, 2:09am Hi, Just had another thought! It might be 33m head, but that will be the pumping head, not the suction head. They are different. Regards, argfin.
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remember0505 YaBB Newbies Offline I love Water and Wastewater.com Posts: 24 Ho Chi Minh City Gender: Company or Organization: VITTEP	Re: MBR pilot scale problem! Reply #9 - Apr 23^rd, 2012, 2:27am Special thank to everybody Can everybody suggest me a correct pump?
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Jeff Naumann

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Re: MBR pilot scale problem!
Reply #10 - Apr 23^rd, 2012, 7:45am

Why do you need to treat this very small amount of daily flow?

What are the characteristics of the waste?

Is it possible to collect and haul the waste to a larger treatment system on a weekly basis? One half cubic meter per day is only 131 US gallons/day. If you DO treat it yourself, what will you do with the "reject" stream from the membrane system?

I personally have no experience with membrane treatment. But, if the waste is "pre-screened" to remove any solids, a gear pump would probably work. If pulsing is not a problem with membrane treatment, a diaphragm pump might work.

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Re: MBR pilot scale problem!
Reply #11 - Apr 23^rd, 2012, 8:38pm

Thank for your attention!

I'am using the MBR for treatment dentel clinic wastewater, because the flowrate is small, so iam using only 02 module of membrane. In my country, all dental clinic have to treat the wastewater, not collect and transport to another place for treatment.

I'am using the flat membrane that used in laboratory with effective membrane area is 0.1 m2.

Now i'am using the panasonic pum GP-125w, capital = 33 litrer/m, but the suction flow is small, about 10 litre/h. I dont know how to choose the suitable suction pump for this membrane type.

Exercuse for my bad english skill!

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Watthour

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Re: MBR pilot scale problem!
Reply #12 - Apr 24^th, 2012, 1:36pm

With that little flow the membranes should be able to gravity permeate if the system topography is design to allow that. A very small pump would be needed (if any) to assist the flow and ONLY if it does not impart excessive transmembrane pressure - It must be monitored and limited to whatever the peak allowable TMP of the membranes might be.

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Jeff Naumann God Member Offline I love Water and Wastewater.com Posts: 1133 Torrance, California Gender: Company or Organization: Jeff Naumann & Associates	Re: MBR pilot scale problem! Reply #13 - Apr 24^th, 2012, 2:54pm What quality of "effluent" is required? What happens to the effluent? Maybe an RO system is overkill, and not required.
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Jeff Naumann God Member Offline I love Water and Wastewater.com Posts: 1133 Torrance, California Gender: Company or Organization: Jeff Naumann & Associates	Re: MBR pilot scale problem! Reply #14 - Apr 24^th, 2012, 3:09pm Here's a type of pump that would work. But, for how long? You would need to use a fine screen before the pump, to prevent damage to the pump. http://www.pumptec.com/images/other_pages/carpet_cat/PDFs/Series112V_112T_114.pdf
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Watthour

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Re: MBR pilot scale problem!
Reply #15 - Apr 25^th, 2012, 11:09pm

Perhaps I'm confused, but the OP indicated the system uses a flat (sheet) membrane, and never mentioned and RO system. If it is NOT an RO system it should not be using a pump capable of pressure anywhere near what has been listed. Even the best PVDF sheet (from the likes of Donaldson and Sepro) can only tolerate about 90" WC, or about 0.25kPa in flat plate use.

Yes, flat sheet MBR membranes are available in that size (0.6m²) and I have them as small as 0.15m² (10" x 12" double sided).

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Re: MBR pilot scale problem!
Reply #16 - Apr 25^th, 2012, 11:47pm

Perhap the membrane size that i'am using have the area = 0.15 m2 with double side like you..

To resolve the problem I was connected three more module of membrane in serial, but the suction flow of pump nearly = zero after 1 day.!! Embarrassed

What type of pump do you using? I'am using the pump with suction head = 9m.

The picture of pump:

The picture of membrane:

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Watthour

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Re: MBR pilot scale problem!
Reply #17 - Apr 26^th, 2012, 7:15am

Those are approximately the same membranes I was describing, and are not for RO but are designed for MBR. I have used them in 100 G/D (400 l/D) MBR packages. You will need to provide a pump with no more than 0.25kPa NPSH and the output pressure is somewhat irrelevant. There are multiple ways to control the process and the pumping of permeate. Do you have a diagram or photo of your system?

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Dante625 YaBB Newbies Offline I love Water and Wastewater.com Posts: 5 Company or Organization: dfdf	Re: MBR pilot scale problem! Reply #18 - Apr 30^th, 2012, 11:57pm Sorry i don't have any idea about MBR pilot scale. Try to search on internet.
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hussein

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Re: MBR pilot scale problem!
Reply #19 - May 1^st, 2012, 5:31pm

I think you should check first if this pump is self - priming or not.

I think it is not self- priming, so you should make sure that the permeate line from the MBR module is filled with water and there is nor air entrapped inside (you can install a small valve on the permeate line to fill the header with water before starting the pump). Moreover, all the valves on the permeate header have to be closed except the permeate valves.

Can you tell me more information about the operation type of your system (i.e.is it running continuously or intermittently??) and the type of membrane module that you used in addition to the TMP value???

Regards,
Hussein

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