Home
W&WW Blog Case Histories Books Shop Amazon Member Survey Advertise ?
Buyer's Guide News Help Forum Ask Tom! Jobs Videos Online Training

Water and Wastewater.com Help Forums

Click here now

Search

Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
May 21st, 2013, 3:25pm
Top 10 Members
Runyan Sobisch Keenan Seghers Santa Cruz Gillen Kendall Orlebeke Ayrus Kersey
  HomeHelpSearchLoginRegister  
Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!! (Read 561 times)
bcotosu
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 9


Company or Organization: Biocarburantes
Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
May 03rd, 2012, 11:42am
 
Our biological looks quite horrible these days. Foam on the 2 reactor, brown foam and althought I don't see a lot of filamentous we are thinking about adding hipoclhoridre as a solution to get rid of the foam.
The MLSS are much higher than what they used to be around14000 but only 60% is MLVSS. soluble DQO is around 300. At the inlet the feed has 2500 soluble DQO but 14000 total DQO.
A lot of a microorganims (we think it could be an amoeba but not sure), some paremecium, some vorticella and some filamentous but do you think is a lot? Can these amount of filamentous be the problem?
I'll be very glad if some of you can help me with this as this is the first time I have to cope with foaming.

DQO soluble inlet 2608
DQo total 13368
Solids inlet 8174
MLSS 27000
MLVSS 16200
F/M (calculated with soluble DQO 0,02 with total 0,08)
Slude age 30
Decanted after 30' 950

Not able to attach pictures! if somebody wants to help I can send  the pictures to see if they know what our microo are and what they mean.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Tom Keenan - nesa
God Member
*****
Offline

Environmental
Consultant - contact
info@nesa.ie

Posts: 2103

Gender: male

Company or Organization: nesa environmental consultants
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #1 - May 3rd, 2012, 12:21pm
 
These are extraordinary values for MLSS & MLVSS. The activated sludge is at 2.7% solids before it leaves the aeration tank. How does it settle in the clarifier? (Probably poorly!!)
What is DQO?
The f/m value quoted seem very low also, and may be pointing to a significantly higher sludge age than you think.
Have you had difficulties in recent weeks or months with sludge wasting?
Back to top
 
 

tomkeenan@nesa.ie
Environmental Consultant
www.nesa.ie
WWW   IP Logged
bcotosu
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 9


Company or Organization: Biocarburantes
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #2 - May 3rd, 2012, 12:55pm
 
The secondary clarifier (decanter) works quite well lowering the solids to around 30. Little foam but just a little bit. All started after a sudden failure of the DAF, a lot of DQO and solids incoming. Inlet from DQO total 4600 to DQO total 28000.
We had some trouble too with the centrifugal decanter for the waste, but if was fixed and now it is working fine. We purged more to get rid of the solids but finally we had to recirculate the plant for some days.

Since then the soluble solids are low and we recover part of the fauna (first small microor, then getting better). Right now we still have foam (actually I think we are having more) and we are starting to think it can be a filamentous issue although I think I dont see very much at the microscope.

DQO at the 2 reactor 350
DQO at the final reactor before the secondary clarifier 290.
Total solids at the final reactor 13500.
Capacity of the biological 2000 m3, % volatil 60.

MlSS = 2000*13500/1000
MLVSS = 2000*13500*0.6/1000

We do not see any rotifer only small and fast free swimmers, paramecium and some vorticella.

DO at 2 reactor 1,5
Do at final reactor 0,8
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
grrun
God Member
*****
Offline

WaterandWastewa
ter.Com is the best!

Posts: 3525
Pekin, IL
Gender: male

Company or Organization: Freelance Environmental Engine
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #3 - May 3rd, 2012, 3:24pm
 
DQO is Spanish for COD. I tend to agree with Tom; the sludge age may be much higher than you've calculated. I realize that your sludge processing capabilities are overloaded; but you can't change the sludge age overnight. Wasting about 1,000 Kg/day of total solids would eventually result in a 25 day sludge age and also improve the DO of the system from the low values reported. I'm focused on process operation and am usually ignorant of microscopic examination.

grrun  

PS Don't try to correct the problem with chlorine!

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
bcotosu
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 9


Company or Organization: Biocarburantes
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #4 - May 3rd, 2012, 3:38pm
 
Thanks both or you.
Grunn you think the foam is caused by the high solids in the system then?.
If I understand you well, you think by purging more sludge at the clarifier, we will be able to get rid of the problem. We will reduce the sludge age and raise the F/M ratio. Is that right?

What do you think about the MLVSS = 60% MLSS shouldn't be higher. I was afraid to purge to much and reduce the MLVSS by doing this
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
The sludge judge
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 649
Wisconsin
Gender: male

Company or Organization: private
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #5 - May 3rd, 2012, 4:34pm
 
Priority one is fixing the DAF. You're F/M seems like it's probably much higher than you're calculating because a lot of these particulate CODs take much longer to degrade and are still in the system.(from the failure of the DAF). It sounds like you got hit with a big slug load.

The foam needs to be examined under the microscope by a professional to determine it's cause. The MLSS should also be evaluated to help you troubleshoot.

My advise is to limit the loading (slow the flow down) and get the DAF fixed ASAP. I wouldn't make a huge change in the WAS rate if you're still getting bombed with a slug load of COD. This will only make the biology worse. Your effluent TSS isn't bad so I don't see a need to make a huge change to the WAS rate. (The MLSS will decrease as you lower the loading rate).

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
bcotosu
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 9


Company or Organization: Biocarburantes
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #6 - May 3rd, 2012, 4:51pm
 
Thanks to you too.

We have been running on low load and with the DAF working fine for about 2 weeks now. Actually we are getting at the homogeneization pond low soluble cod but still high total cod (although getting lower). The thing is everytime we try to feed the homoge. pond with new influent from our other ponds the DQO tends to increase quite fast (even with the DAF working) and as we need to continue feeding from this points the problems tends to continue all time
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
grrun
God Member
*****
Offline

WaterandWastewa
ter.Com is the best!

Posts: 3525
Pekin, IL
Gender: male

Company or Organization: Freelance Environmental Engine
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #7 - May 3rd, 2012, 9:53pm
 
The sludge age is inversely proportional to the F/M ratio. You have no real way to separate the MLSSs from the MLVSSs. Do not try to purge the MLSSs too rapidly. About 4% of the total MLSSs should be wasted daily.

grrun
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Tom Keenan - nesa
God Member
*****
Offline

Environmental
Consultant - contact
info@nesa.ie

Posts: 2103

Gender: male

Company or Organization: nesa environmental consultants
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #8 - May 4th, 2012, 3:04am
 
Hi again,
You say that
DQO soluble inlet 2608
DQo total 13368.
What are these solids?
Is it possible to remove some of them by simple settling before it gets to the biological stage?
By feeding such high solids levels to the biological stage, you can expect the MLSS (or MLVSS) to read as a false high, and then when using either of these values to calculate either sludge age or f/m the error is compounded.
While you may have 27,000 mg/l MLSS with 16,200 MLVSS, and with over 8,000 mg/l suspended solids in the feed, it is possible that you have accumulated a significant amount of MLSS & MLVSS that is not "active" and comprises only solids from the feed.
I believe that there is an urgent need to address the high solids in the feed, and then correct the sludge age & f/m to optimum levels.
Back to top
 
 

tomkeenan@nesa.ie
Environmental Consultant
www.nesa.ie
WWW   IP Logged
bcotosu
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 9


Company or Organization: Biocarburantes
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #9 - May 8th, 2012, 1:45pm
 
We have been some days runing on a higher was and feeding less DQO and solids but our reactor is still on 14000 SS. Today we set a lower recirculation rate from de secondary decanter to the first reactor of the biological and we stop one of the pumps that recirculate from the 4th to the 1st reactor. The foam seems to be less right now. Our centrifugal decanter is getting overload because of the high amount of solids we are purging from the decanter and from de DAF and because of that some of the solids return to the homo pond. I thought that maybe in three four days we would have seen some improvement but somehow the solids are still there....
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
The sludge judge
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 649
Wisconsin
Gender: male

Company or Organization: private
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #10 - May 9th, 2012, 7:07am
 
Can you provide a basic flow schematic of your plant? What are your permit levels on discharge and what BOD/TSS etc are you currently discharging?

What is your MLSS in your aeration tank? (I was assuming before the 27000 mg/L was in your centrifugal decanter?)


Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Prepi
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 9


Company or Organization: N/A
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #11 - May 9th, 2012, 7:40am
 
Would you indicate whether this plant is receiving septic tanks discharges via cisterns.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Prodigy Child
Full Member
***
Offline

Water and
Wastewater.com is
the best!

Posts: 113

Gender: male

Company or Organization: Wastewater
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #12 - May 9th, 2012, 8:37am
 
Get Tom Hobsons book on activated sludge.  There are some very simple tests in there anyone can do without high end equipment.  I adapted it for my plant and it simplified operations so much.  Every plant is different so some of it can seem bogus, but he does a great job playing devils advocate.  It is a cheap resource you will not regret.  I fought long and hard with my process, finally we all agreed to CL2 dosing in the RAS line.  I do not regret it at all.  Now it is a no brainer.  My flow was only 9000gpd. I added 12ml/min to the Ras flow of 42gpm for 5 days.  Foam on the plant was 90% gone in a day.  5th day the plant turned a bit cloudy and we lost nitrification.  Every day since it has been better and better.  Take good notes and observations.  It is the only way to learn from any mistakes.  My mistake was I should have stopped at 4 days.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
bcotosu
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 9


Company or Organization: Biocarburantes
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #13 - May 9th, 2012, 10:45am
 
DAF
 The sludge goes to the thickener

Homogeneization pond.

Biological reactor (4 pond in serie, 1st anaerobic, rest aireated).
 It has a recirculation from 4 to 1.

Clarifier
  From here we go to our sludge thickener.
  From here we recirculate to our 1st reactor.

Thickener.
  From here we go to our centrifugal decanter.
  The overflow goes to the homo pond.

Centrifugal decanter.
 From here we dispose sludge.
 The clarify goes to the homo pond.

Levels of discharge, to a river
COD 125
SS T35

MLSS in our biological (4th reactor) 14000
MVLSS in our biological 12000

Yes Prepi, we sometimes discharge septic tanks via cisterns.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Prepi
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 9


Company or Organization: N/A
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #14 - May 10th, 2012, 3:14am
 
Make sure to clean the settled sludge in the ponds in the event the sludge blanket is high.

Make sure to divert all incoming septic tanks septage to the centrifuge without allowing the septage into the liquid stream.

Best Regards,
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
bcotosu
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 9


Company or Organization: Biocarburantes
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #15 - May 10th, 2012, 7:47am
 
What do you mean by clean? Take the slude from the aireation reactores away with a sumergible pump??

Whats the problem with the septic tanks?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
bcotosu
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

I love Water and
Wastewater.com

Posts: 9


Company or Organization: Biocarburantes
Re: Somebody to help me before adding CL  !!!!
Reply #16 - May 12th, 2012, 4:44pm
 
Prepi??
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged